Drivers Today: Kids These Days

"Lets Just Drive" (lets-just-drive)
10/12/2013 at 19:07 • Filed to: DRIVERS TODAY

Let me set the stage for today's traffic rant.

I'm driving along, off to check on one of our clients sites, having just pulled out of Tim Hortons with my cool Iced Cap in the cup holder when, as if from no where, an early 7th gen Honda Accord appears behind me. Goodness knows where it came from as it wasn't there a few seconds ago and goodness knows how fast it must have raced up behind me, given the 30km/h zone we were passing through. There it is, mere inches from my bumper, and urging me to speed through an area where police often like to catch speeders. The driver cannot be more than seventeen, eighteen years old at best and it becomes instantly clear that Junior is driving the family whip. There's a big, soft wrap around the wheel, obvious in my rear view, and a family of those stick-people figures in the back glass. I think, "Twitchy toes Junior is the last dipshit I want on my ass right now."

Now, I'll pause here to say that yes, I was young once too. However, and this is key, I was young behind the wheel of a high-miles, Canada-crossing-not-once-but-thrice 1977 Volkswagen Type 2 (that's the old hippy bus, the toaster, for those of you who don't know) whose best years were long, long behind it. Manual, four speed, it has a clutch throw taller than most basketball players and the gears were so far apart, and fond of playing hide-and-seek, that the transition from any one gear to another was a gamble, at best. It coughed and wheezed it's maaaaaaybe 40 horses, spat blue smoke and came with crumple zones that were your knees. This thing did not behoove teenage driving. By the time I got my Mustang, an '88 GT, for my first car, I had a good sense of how to behave on the public roads... which isn't to say I didn't have fun, I just didn't look for it in traffic as so many of my peers had. The point is; I get what it's like to finally get the keys, as a young man, and regardless of the state of the family car, drive it like a spaceship. I get it, but I'm not going to condone it.

So, naturally, I drop a gear. My pony grabs the pavement and I watch as Junior flails. My foot is on the accelerator, ready to launch the Mustang forward if he gets too close. But no, it works a charm. I see Junior go from scared to annoyed to angry all in the space of a couple car lengths.

Now it's on. At least, for Junior it is. My suspicions confirmed, I think I'm pretty well disengaged from the situation at this point. Single track, 30km/h. Nothing he can do. I settle in at about 26-28km/h and sip my Timmys.

As we approach the end of the 30 zone, I wonder if he's going to keep pressing. Sure enough, as I gather speed, Junior half falls back before zooming up behind me. This is clear language, it's international, it says, "GTFO my way!" It's also extremely dangerous, selfish and unlikely to engender cooperation in others with the possible exception of folks actually jamming up the flow of traffic by traveling too slow in a fast lane, or just too far below the posted road speed. But I'm doing the posted speed, and just to test a theory, I take it briefly up to sixty. Here, in BC, it's pretty uncommon to get tagged for anything under 10kph over, so sixty in a fifty is not unheard of. But even then, he doesn't back off. It's pretty clear that no matter how fast I travel along, he's not going to be happy unless he's in front and going the fastest.

Up ahead, the road splits into two lanes, though only briefly. The intention was to create a pull-out lane for the shipping trucks which access the waterfront industrial area here. I know it's there and I'm betting he knows it's there, too. Check the rear view and sure enough, he's leaned all the way over trying to look around my wide, black, tinted cock... err, Mustang and can't see shit. I can, though. I can see the police officer parked in the first drive, gun pointed.

Smiles.

I let off a bit, give this kid something to really stew over. The lane opens.

Note; it's short. I mean, short. If traffic is doing the posted speed, there isn't enough room to pass one car, let alone the few lined up ahead of me. In my Mustang, I'd have to commit very early, drop the clutch and fly like a bat out of hell with my fingers crossed and some poo would still come out.

Lacking the benefit of knowledge and/or experience and driven by his testosterone enriched peen, Junior tries for it. Here's what happens.

He stays right on my ass until the very moment the lane opens up. He mats it and I can tell, it's an autobox. The car pauses, then surges. He comes past me, on the inside mind you, doing easily fifteen kph more than I, and I'm hugging the limit here. He gets around me. This, I think, is where he either noticed the cop, the traffic ahead, or the shortness of the lane (maybe all three, but let's not fantasize here about the mental faculties at Juniors disposal) but it's too late. He's beside me. He gives me a look that says, "Fuck you. This is your fault," before slamming the brakes so hard he squeals out of sight and being forced to fall in behind me once again.

I watch the cop pull out, nice and slowly.

We come to the light, it's gone back to single track before opening up an advanced left-hand turn lane. Junior signals and moves over, but the light is red and we're side by side now. Behind Junior, the cop, I can see, is tapping away at his computer. Running the plates, no doubt.

Junior glares at me, through my tinted glass and I notice his windows are down. I press the button, my window drops and I smile, "Your mom pay for the gas?" I ask, smartass. "Think she's gonna pay that ticket, too?"

Light changes, and I launch up to fifty without wheelspin, just engine roar.

Moral of the story - we're sharing the roads. If you won't grow up and drive responsibly, you're going to have a bad day.

DISCUSSION (45)

signintokinjalol > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 19:13

Listen buddy, just get out of my way i don't care who you are, what you drive or whos in the car with you. When your on the road with me, you better get of the way.

Cha.

signintokinjalol > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 19:14

The best part he blames youth, oh the ignorance.

It is the green-eyed monster which doth mock

signintokinjalol > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 19:15

In the 1970's when i was 18 in my Hemi Challner i use to do the same thing to people in front of me.

I'm sure whom ever i was tailgating said "Kids these days."

Lol.

signintokinjalol > signintokinjalol
10/12/2013 at 19:16

challenger* Excuse the post war Dell keyboard.

TheOnelectronic > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 19:16

It seems like a lot of words to say "This kid driving his parents' accord felt like tailgating me through a residential area, so I messed with him to try and get him to do something stupid once the road opened up."

You also didn't mention if the cop ended up pulling him over.

Lets Just Drive > TheOnelectronic
10/12/2013 at 19:18

Didn't see. They both went left at the turning lane, while I continued on ahead.

Though, knowing that road as well as I do, and if I were an LEO, I'd have pulled the kid over once we got around the corner, through the light as it's a much safer spot.

Manuél Ferrari > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 19:19

I have to admit, I love doing stuff like this. It's fun to bait people into getting tickets.

Lets Just Drive > signintokinjalol
10/12/2013 at 19:19

Thing is, I wouldn't mind that kind of Mad Max driving, if everyone was playing the same game. I've got a hunch I'd be pretty good at it.

Open the glovebox

Reach inside

Gonna wreck this fuckers ride

Cos I've got a bad habbit

Of blowing away

Lets Just Drive > signintokinjalol
10/12/2013 at 19:20

No, you're right.

I should blame Honda.

Lets Just Drive > Manuél Ferrari
10/12/2013 at 19:21

People who get baited into this kind of behavior are prone to it anyway, so I see no problem.

I had a good friend when I was becoming a Driver Person In The World who was everything like the kid described above. It wasn't until he'd paid something like eigth thousand dollars in tickets over the space of a couple years, lost his license and suddenly realized how important it is in this society of ours and now he's, get this, a driving instructor.

Casper > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 19:24

There is a lot wrong with the story here. We have a new driver being overly aggressive and rude. We have an older driver being aggressive and rude. We have intentional escalation of the situation by someone who should be the more mature driver, as well as an immature conclusion.

Sorry, but in the end of stupid meets stupid, I am more likely to side with the lesser stupid... and it just might be the kid. Deliberately driving slow and antagonizing someone is idiotic at best. Further, using the excuse that you were driving the speed limit as justification for not allowing someone to pass or as an excuse to engage in road rage by driving even further under the limit is just as bad as someone tailgating to make you go faster. At that point, you both were acting illegally and irresponsibly.

Lets Just Drive > Casper
10/12/2013 at 19:28

I think you have missed the part where I stayed within the legally accepted and posted road speeds with the exception of approaching sixty in a fifty.

What we actually have here is an overly aggressive driver behaving like an ass and an older driver in a position to remind that younger driver that his actions have consequences.

Nothing I did could be construed as illegal and while a sufficiently eloquent lawyer could probably word wrangle me into some form of culpability there's hardly a traffic court in the land who'd side with the youth.

Thing is, I tend to agree with you and in most incidents of road-rage my tactic is to disengage.

This wasn't the same by a darn sight.

pdthedeuce > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 19:47

nice Offspring reference !

Casper > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 19:56

The illegal point wasn't speed, it was your deliberate attempt to escalate a situation. Regardless of your speed, it's a form of road rage. Not to mention childish. It's like telling a kid to not run in the halls so he shuffles the wheel rest of the way at half speed to pout. There are also laws in some areas that state you must disengage from an aggressive driver, even if that means you pull over to allow them to pass. I don't know about you're area, but I'm sure there are still laws about participating in road rage.

Just because you were legally being an asshole, it doesn't mean you were being any less of one.

Manuél Ferrari > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 20:02

That is hilarious! He has the perfect job now if he's instructing on the track.

When I was young I didn't get a chance to a jerk for too long. I got my first two tickets within 2 months after getting my license.

I tried to fight the 2nd one in court since I wasn't eligible for traffic school and had nothing to lose. A cop had tried and failed to keep up with me on a deserted and windy road (his HP was no match for my E30's handling). He caught up when I stopped for a stop sign and cited me for going 30 over the limit. I photos of the road and where the cop said he was when he saw me go by and tried to argue to the judge that the cop could not have accurately estimated how fast I was going since he said he had not used a radar and had to follow up from a dead stop and had so much trouble doing it.

The judge thought I was hilarious. He reduced the cost of the ticket and let me take "problem driving school", which was a 12 hour traffic school class for idiots like me. Getting 20 hours of traffic school in a 2 month period, dealing with the shame of my Dad not talking to me for week after the 2nd ticket, and the fear of getting another ticket and having my car taken away scared me straight. I drove a lot slower after that and never tried to race anyone.

Manuél Ferrari > Casper
10/12/2013 at 20:05

I understand your point. The kid could have crashed and died. But in this case he didn't and he got a ticket, which could lead to him being safer in the future. Maybe this encounter stopped the kid from racing another kid and causing an accident.

Lets Just Drive > Casper
10/12/2013 at 20:06

Even if I chose not to argue that point and accept that I was being an asshole within the boundaries of the law, then Junior was being an asshole outside the boundaries of the law.

And regardless of my response, would have continued to tailgate and undertake.

Thus; if I am forced to share the roads with your child (the greater "your") and you are unwilling or incapable of instilling in them a sense of responsibility and have failed to educate them as to proper conduct in public, do not expect me to accommodate their brash arrogance.

This extends beyond the idea of youth, as well. If you (again, the greater "you") are unwilling or incapable of proper conduct on the road do not expect me to accommodate your unwilling inabilities.

I may not be an officer of the law, and thus my powers limited to those of a dutiful, civic-minded civillian and if "being an asshole" is required to resolve a situation you (still, the greater "you") have placed me in, an asshole I shall be upto and within the full extent allowed me by the law.

Most of the time. Hell, I'm as hypocritical as anyone else, but today I happened to be upon my high horse. And here's my penultimate point, this kid would have done everything he did regardless of my action, reaction or inaction. Nothing I did provoked the situation any further than he was willing to go already. Much like Indiana Jones, the outcome would have been largely the same regardless of my involvement and the Nazi's would still open the arc and die.

I get your point, I really truly do.

I just hope you see mine as well.

Lets Just Drive > Manuél Ferrari
10/12/2013 at 20:11

Hey, that boat you were in? Yeah. I've been in the same one.

No one is immune, and that's kind of my point. The hope is that something, even an expensive thing, teaches us right from wrong before we hurt someone else or ourselves.

So sure, I may have been able to warn Junior about the cop ahead, somehow, but what's the point of enabling shitty behavior? It wasn't as if he came flying up, saw me, then backed off. And he didn't even back off when I sped up a bit, to try and make room for his dumbass.

All bridges, burned. This is why I can't believe Casper and a couple others are defending Junior, or just attacking me. Oh well.

And no.

Not at the track.

He's a Young Drivers instructor. He actually finds and corrects problem behavior in new drivers now, and yeah... it's just a job. But still, it's amusing that he went from one end, to the other and when he got there, tried to help other people get there too.

Lets Just Drive > Casper
10/12/2013 at 20:18

Even if I chose not to argue that point and accept that I was being an asshole within the boundaries of the law, then Junior was being an asshole outside the boundaries of the law.

And regardless of my response, would have continued to tailgate and undertake.

This extends beyond the idea of youth, as well. If you (again, the greater "you") are unwilling or incapable of proper conduct on the road do not expect me to accommodate your unwilling inabilities.

I get your point, I really truly do.

I just hope you see mine as well.

Manuél Ferrari > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 20:22

Yeah someone being young only buys them a certain amount of sympathy. It's like excusing criminals for violent crimes because they had a bad childhood. If he didn't back off when you sped up a bit to make room for him that that's on him.

It's not fair for people to attack you. Would it been better to not engage at all? Probably. But we're all human and can only take so much when someone is trying to aggravate us. I'm not yet mature enough to avoid having a little fun with people as long as I'm going the speed limit or just a bit above. Maybe I will be one day, but I'm not there yet.

That's awesome your buddy is a young drivers instructor. It's like an ex gang member teaching kids to not join gangs. The most effective teachers are those that had to learn the lesson first hand.

Lets Just Drive > Manuél Ferrari
10/12/2013 at 20:32

My pro-tip? Don't be in a hurry.

In my experience, being in a rush is the cause of most road rage. Add a little time to your commute, or if you're going out leave maybe a bit early. Everyone is subject to it, I think. It's not a symptom of youth, though perhaps more common in younger folk? I don't know.

What I do know is that, many years ago, I realized that if I had more time, I'd be much more calm and collected on the road and that it changed my driving immeasurably. Suddenly that slow coach isn't such a big deal and you're not racing to make lights, or gaps in traffic. It's a blessing.

Now, having just typed all that out, I still have little or no patience for people who are either willfully ignorant or under informed when it comes to the rules of the road and the expectations thereof. Even with all the time in the world, I hate seeing drivers flaunt their entitled, abusive or ignorant attitudes on the road. Oh, you forgot to get into the turn lane, and now you're three lanes over? Yeah, sure. Just go ahead and cut all the way across because God knows there's no possible way to correct for that mistake now. It's turn or die, right?

Manuél Ferrari > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 20:47

That is one of the 3 most important tips to avoid road rage. I'd like to submit two more:

2. Do not drink a pot of coffee before leaving the house and listen to music loud while driving. You can be way early to work and still be incited into road rage. Dangerous levels of caffeine + loud music = driving like it's Mario Kart

3. Do not drink any amount of alcohol and get in a high power car. Even having one beer with dinner and being under the limit is still too much. We are all much less likely to give in to the temptation to use the power our cars have if we've had any amount of alcohol. It's too easy to be egged on to race if there is any amount of alcohol in our system.

I solved #2 by moving right next to work. I no longer get on the freeway to commute. Even if I drink too much coffee before leaving the house it's not a big deal as by the time it fully hits I'm at work. I solved #3 by coming up with a system to count drinks so I'm sure they have fully metabolized before leaving a restaurant. I make sure to never drink more than 1 drink per hour and count each Belgian/IPA as 2 drinks, so I only allow myself 1 strong beer if having a 2 hour dinner date. And I never, ever drink cocktails if driving because there is too much variability in how much alcohol is poured and even 1 cocktail can be too strong for a 2 hour dinner.

Lets Just Drive > Manuél Ferrari
10/12/2013 at 20:56

Speaking as someone who won't get behind the wheel when he's had a drink, at all, I don't have a formula. Here, however, we've a zero tolerance law which leaves the judgment in the officers hands. So, if you've had a single drink, get caught at a road check, and the cop takes a dislike, it could cost you your license and your car. For one drink.

Also, I don't really drink. When I'm not driving and the wife and I go out for dinner, or we're having a special dinner at home, I'll have a beer with dinner but that's it. I like alcohol, in all its many forms and I'm a booze snob when I do have a drink but I detest being drunk. Detest it with the deepest detestation.

1.) Give yourself plenty of time.

2.) Avoid music or food which inclines you towards aggressive driving.

3.) Go to the washroom first.

Manuél Ferrari > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 21:00

LOL to #3. Good point.

Where do you live? I'm in California and the legal limit is 0.08 (unless under 21, then I think it's zero tolerance).

I've become a booze snob too. Which is really helpful with not drinking and driving because the beers and wines I like are so expensive that it hurts to buy more than one glass when out.

Casper > Manuél Ferrari
10/12/2013 at 21:00

That's irrelevant. It's about not participating in road rage and acting like an adult. The kids had the excuse of being young and stupid... He didn't.

Casper > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 21:03

I see the point you wanted to make, but the one you actually made is that old people are as stupid as young ones, but rationalize it better.

Lets Just Drive > Manuél Ferrari
10/12/2013 at 21:05

When those two fingers of Scotch cost as much as what your boozy friends are getting drunk on, yeah, it helps keep the consumption down. Also, it's nice to enjoy the drink and not chase the drunk, know what I mean?

I'm up here in Canadafornia. Aka, BC. Aka, The Lower Mainland. I live in Victoria, but my "home" has been split between the Island and the Mainland since I was a kid. Vancouver has everything and Victoria is just so nice.

And they say that driving while you need to take a piss very badly can be just as dangerous as driving drunk. Dunno about that, but I've been behind the wheel with a full bladder in the past and I'll testify; I drove faster and less safely then I should.

Lets Just Drive > Casper
10/12/2013 at 21:08

Incorrect. That is what you inferred from this post, alongside one other Oppo who could only be bothered to post incomplete sentences that I didn't dare try and respond to.

Here, I at least gave us the benefit of the doubt but it's pretty clear you're either not understanding what actually transpired, or I'm not communicating it well enough or just determined to take the opposite position. Either way, let's just agree to disagree and call it conversation concluded.

Manuél Ferrari > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 21:35

Yeah getting wasted isn't fun past a certain age. The hangovers get too nasty.

I've only been to Edmonton, so my entire Canada experience consisted of brutal cold and a giant mall.

Driving while having to piss is bad. But not as bad as racing because you have to go #2, LOLOL.

Lets Just Drive > Manuél Ferrari
10/12/2013 at 21:40

I once avoided a ticket for sort of blowing through a red light, because I was rushing to use the washroom for a number deuce. Officer was really kind, ran the blues and two's for me about the 300 meters to the nearest gas station. I ran in and pooped. Forgot to close my car windows though, and the cop hung around til I got back.

Just goes to show that not all cops are dicks.

gmctavish needs more space > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 21:44

So, I don't want to be too contentious here, but as a member of the youth you generalize so, in BC no less, I can agree that yes, young people drive too fast. Just as much as old people drive too slow, and women and asians drive badly and can't park. My point being, you have no idea whatsoever why he was trying to get by you. I am the 18 year old in his parents car that's sometimes in a hurry and get glared at for being young. I'm stereotyped and it's assumed I'm an irresponsible driver, which I am not. I've driven like an ass before, I've done the same thing as you did to that tailgater, but overall I consider myself a good driver, as I'm sure you consider yourself. But what if his friend was in trouble? What if someone close to him was in the hospital in unknown condition and he didn't care if you were uncomfortable with his distance? That's been me, I've had the joy of driving from Burnaby to Lions Gate Hospital in North Van, and had to deal with some self-righteous dangers to themselves holding me up in their attempt to force the law upon me, that I didn't care about at the time. If that driver was in his 30s or 40s, would you have written this? Why can't it just be a rant, instead of a rant at "kids these days"? Don't take this personally, just needed to counter-rant. Anyways. That is all.

Lets Just Drive > gmctavish needs more space
10/12/2013 at 21:53

There is no excuse. Period.

Your hurry is not an excuse or reason to contravene the laws everyone else is expected to abide by. Thus; whatever the reason for your hurry, you are in fact the individual in the wrong if your expectation is that, based on your needs, you take priority over others or are allowed to contravene the laws others are still expected to obey.

Second, the title was a tongue in cheek reference, not a sweeping generalization. Furthermore, I avoided generalizations in my opening post for just this reason and further admitted my own complicity in being a one-young-driver. You, my friend, are the one who assumed a generalization and then added to it with what I assume are sarcastic references to common stereotypes.

I have known a great many young drivers who're the very opposite of the Junior referenced above, however; in my experience, they tend to be in the minority. That is not a generalization, that is an observation based on my experiences which, not to belittle the point, exceed your own based on age - if not life experience, alone. This is why "teachers" are commonly not sixteen year-old kids and why positive role models tend to have the benefit of experience either first hand or vicariously.

In closing, and again not to belittle you, I don't give a flying Christ fuck what the reason for your hurry is. It's not an excuse. You do not have lights and sirens, and if you do, then rest assured that I'll get the hell out of your way and let you go about your life saving business. But being late for school is your deal, and yours alone.

Manuél Ferrari > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 21:54

That is the best story about getting pulled over EVER. That story deserves its own Oppo post. I've wondered if a cop would be sympathetic in that situation. Really awesome that the cop was in your situation. How awful would it be if the cop believed you but purposefully took forever to write you up just to make you suffer.

gmctavish needs more space > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 22:01

Genuine question here, before I address anything else. Are you saying that if one of your best friends was in the emergency ward for unknown reasons, you wouldn't break any traffic laws, even the usual speeding you mentioned that is so common here? Because that doesn't jive with "no excuse"...... It's hard to demonstrate tone through a keyboard, but I apologize for my earlier frustration, I'm just curious now, and I'll address your other points as well

Lets Just Drive > gmctavish needs more space
10/12/2013 at 22:05

I'm not saying that.

What I'm saying is that you'd still be in the wrong, you'd still be an entitled asshole and you'd still have to deal with the possible consequences of that course of action. The difference between what I'd do in that situation and what the expectations of law and society are aren't the crux of the discussion.

The meat of the matter is thus; you do not have the right, under any circumstance, to contravene the law, place others at risk and behave without mature, civic-minded responsibility no matter what the situation. Period.

I don't care if you're on a bus, with a bomb attached, and if you go under 50 you're all going to die. Call a fucking cop. Get some escorts, the legal kind, and fuck off with your exploding self.

Your friend is dying in the hospital and you need to get there in a hurry? Call 9-1-1 and see what they think, if they think it's important enough to send you a cruiser to escort you to hospital.

Hey, I know how you can honor the memory of your dying buddy! Kill some people racing to the hospital!

gmctavish needs more space > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 22:13

So, for starters. If I am the only urgently moving driver in the area, I do assume that my needs take priority, which by no means is a perfect system in the slightest, but when I'm in a hurry, I look for openings, I assume others do too. (All of this should be followed by "within reason and safety of myself an others") Second, I'm tired after a long day, and genuinely forgot about your reference to being a young driver, that makes a difference, this is just a sore spot for me, that changes my position on whether or not you were generalizing. In my experience as well, good young drivers are definitely in the minority, which, not to bait anyone, can be traced back to poor driver training and licensing by older people......not exclusively, but they don't get off scott-free. I would urge you to look more into if you really don't care what the reason behind the hurry is, because that's a very black and white point of view. Personally, I'd be more apt to allow someone by me, knowing that they accept the consequences of their speeding, considering that they may have a good reason. But if to you, there is no such thing as a good reason, then my point is moot. To which possibility I direct you to my second comment, or whatever they're called on Kinja...

gmctavish needs more space > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 22:24

Hey, I'm trying to be mature here, please don't insult me with comments like that last one. You're hyperbolizing what I'm saying, and missing my point. I don't drive dangerously. I drive within the abilities of myself, my car, the road conditions, and the safety of myself and everyone around me. Sometimes what is within those parameters does;t fit perfectly within the speed limits which as I'm sure you know, are almost entirely arbitrary. Would you mind reading what I had to say again with reasonable speeding in mind, as opposed to whatever ridiculous number you seem to have in mind? All I ask is that you speak to me as a reasonable human trying to have a discussion, as opposed to someone trying to tell you everything you say is wrong. Because that's what I'm getting back from you

gmctavish needs more space > gmctavish needs more space
10/12/2013 at 22:25

To quote, I do not "place others at risk and behave without mature, civic-minded responsibility no matter what the situation." I do. however, contravene the law. Those are very, very different things.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 22:48

If I was the cop, I'd pull both of you over and give you a stern talking to.

I still would give the ticket to the kid, though.

Lets Just Drive > gmctavish needs more space
10/12/2013 at 23:05

First, let me apologize. You're absolutely correct. I was being hyperbolic and over dramatizing my point. I did not mean any insult to you, but re-reading my comments regarding the "Speed" reference and the kill-folks-on-the-way-to-hospital tip I can see that they were poorly worded. It was a generalization, furthermore, so apology part two, right there. I appreciate that you are trying to keep a civil tongue with me, and I shouldn't have, as they say, "... gone there.

Secondly, I believe the root of our disconnect is in that you are searching for a by-this-means admission from me. For example; if my wife were in the hospital, delivering our new baby, and I have to hurry there, is it okay for me to speed, disobey traffic control devices and so forth? Adding the caveat that it'll be done responsibly does not, unfortunately excuse this one simple fact - there is a world of difference between being "right" and being right. Morally, you may feel that your situation excuses your antisocial behavior (I'm not calling you antisocial, I am describing the condition of disregarding the social law for your own ambitions as antisocial), but ethically you'll have a very hard time defending them.

Side note; I don't know how old you are, but based on your comments I think it's safe to assume you're in school, of some level, at this point in your life? If so, and I mean this sincerely and not as a jibe, I suggest taking a few Ethics and Philosophy classes as it'll aid in understanding the differences between individual perception and social perception. Anyway...

We judge the morality of actions, within society, according to laws. Wether you contravene those laws a little or a lot, the contravention has still taken place. Whenever you place your own wants or needs above those of the, pardon me, greater good or a larger portion of society, you're said to be behaving in an antisocial manner.

My point, and this is the fundamental soap box upon which I balance my whole argument, is that we have laws which are, believe it or not, the result of majority consent and when they're not, the outcome tends to be revolution. Thus, when you place your wants or needs above those of others, and in doing so force the possibility of their needing to accommodate your antisocial behavior, you are fundamentally in the wrong. In the example of your dying friend, or even your daily drive, you may feel justified in your actions and that's fine, but at least accept the possibility that social cooperation better behooves movement then does selfish entitlement.

Those who behave in an antisocial manner compromising the social order and norm have forgone their right to protest when the laws of that society are leveled against them. Furthermore, if you elect not to abide by the laws of a society, you are more or less giving up the right to complain when others exit the laws with you, and the outcome is negative and not in your favor.

And blah blah.

But on a more human level, just don't be an asshole. This kid was being an asshole and got fucked by a dick. He was probably expecting a pussy, but ran headlong into a cock.

Lets Just Drive > Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura
10/12/2013 at 23:14

You wouldn't have much luck with me.

"Are you issuing me a citation?"

"No."

And then I drive away. Unlike most, I know my rights right well. I don't listen to lectures from police. Also, I work with LEO's on a daily basis, and I'm not exactly their target demographic.

gmctavish needs more space > Lets Just Drive
10/12/2013 at 23:19

Very well said. I see what you're getting at, and I agree with the thinking behind your argument, so while I have my own points I'll look into more myself, I concede to your greater good premise. I am, in fact, taking a philosophy class, (I'm 18 by the way) and fairly well-versed in classical political ideologies and theories, which apply surprisingly well to this topic. I appreciate your apologies, and understand what you're getting at. No offence taken at the antisocial comment, I'm glad someone else actually knows what the word means, and I do accept that social cooperation can be a much better way of movement for the vast majority of the time. I got hung up on a specific point, and failed to recognize the important one, thank you for pointing that out. So yeah. All that jazz. That was in depth. Can we be friends now? :P

Lets Just Drive > gmctavish needs more space
10/12/2013 at 23:26

I don't know.

I sleep with all of my friends.

Hey, look, here's the thing... I'd love to live in a society with wide open roads and rules designed to cater to the enthusiast driver. I'd love it if all our new drivers were put through driving school, where they'd learn not just how to drive but how to be drivers, where they'd be taught how to powerslide a car and drive fast... under controlled conditions. I'd love to live in a drivers utopia.

But that's not where we live. We live on a small planet, with a rapidly expanding population. Most of us in the developed parts of the world depend on cars for our daily lives, but most of them don't give a hooptie in hell about cars outside the name, or how it looks, or how much they can brag about saving the whales from trees in the amazon or some such nonsense. That majority, those who drive but aren't drivers, shape how we behave on the road. Change that fundamental part of our culture, my friend, and I'd be right there with todays Junior, foot matted to the floor and racing every jerk who hates Mustangs. Etc Etc.

gmctavish needs more space > Lets Just Drive
10/13/2013 at 02:02

Well, that escalated quickly.

I hear ya, it is an unfortunate truth, but it is a truth

Lets Just Drive > gmctavish needs more space
10/13/2013 at 02:34

Unfortunate truths are often the truthiest.